The present and future of CG animation

In order to commemorate the grand release of the Japanese version of "Apple Nuclear Wars α" directed by Nobushi Aramaki on January 17, Japanese media animeanime.jp invited two well-known animation directors, Nobushi Aramaki and Seiji Mizushima, to gather together and have a conversation on "The Current Situation and Future of CG Animation".

Director Nobushi Aramaki, who has produced "Apple Nuclear Wars" and "Apple Nuclear Wars EXMACHINA", will officially release the Japanese version of "Apple Nuclear Wars α" on January 17th, which tells the story of the two protagonists before they arrive at the ideal city of Olympus, and has attracted worldwide attention because of its realistic full CG production zuò technique.

Director Seiji Mizushima, a well-known animator who specializes in making zuò robot animation, released the latest theatrical version of the work "Paradise Chase" in November last year, which not only has a rigorous science fiction story escort, but also caused heated discussions in the animation industry because of its use of hand-drawn simulation 3DCG zuò techniques. Realistic full CG techniques meet hand-drawn simulation 3DCG techniques, a parallel online dialogue, two seemingly incompatible famous directors discuss the current situation and future of CG animation with you!

1. What is the realistic full CG production method of "Apple Nuclear Wars α"?

INTERVIEWER CG animation is attracting people's attention, and the Japanese version of "Apple Nuclear War" and "Paradise Chase" can be said to represent the two extremes of today's CG animation industry. I also think that these two works represent the highest level of CG animation at the moment, so I specially invited them to interview. First of all, allow me to ask Director Mizushima a question. What do you think of Apple Nuclear Wars α?

Seiji Mizushima: Making this work in Japan is very significant. Because the only one that can give full play to the realism is this "Apple Nuclear Wars α". Tong Guò uses "motion capture" technology to capture the subtle movements of the actors and then reflect them in the work. This CG smoothness can be said to be very close to a live-action film, and this work is indeed moving towards a higher level of 3D. At the same time, because the budget is limited, it is impossible to perfect everything, so it is necessary for the makers to think hard about how to balance this contradiction. I've experienced this pain myself in "Paradise Chase", and I'm sure that director Aramaki, who came into contact with CG production before me, must have worked harder than me.

INTERVIEWER How did the project for "Apple Nuclear Wars α" originate?

Nobushi Aramaki: Ever since I worked with Sony in 2012 on Starship Warriors: Invaders, the producer has said to me, "How about the next Apple nuclear war?" "SINCE THAT WAS NOT LONG AFTER SOLADIGITALARTS WAS ESTABLISHED, I WAS PLANNING TO START PRODUCING ZUÒ IN THIS NEW STUDIO. In order to make better use of CG technology in the world of "Apple Nuclear Wars", I decided to focus on the two protagonists of the story. This time there is no huge city, so it is effective to save the budget, and the story seems to be much tighter. In general, the stage of this work is to express the "original story" and save zài.

Seiji Mizushima: The Ideal City Olympus didn't even appear on the exterior, so after watching it, I felt that the picture system was indeed targeted. Should I say that you are simply good, or should I say that you are manly, because I myself try to focus my resources on the worldview, so I understand your thoughts. As for the movie screen, there is a feeling of dust billowing in the whole, and the picture quality is really high! And this is a work close to a live-action movie, just because what is expressed is what everyone is used to seeing in daily life, so the difficulty of making zuò is definitely the highest! I really admire your courage to take on such a difficult challenge. Because I also deliberately approached "hand-drawn animation" in "Paradise Chase", I know how powerful you are.

Nobushi Aramaki: Your job isn't easy, but there is also a world where people are used to hand-drawn animation.

Seiji Mizushima: Yes, yes, so I think we're all taking on different challenges.

Nobushi Aramaki: "Paradise Chase" depicts a city, and there are many people in the city. When I was working on "The α of Apple Nuclear Wars", I thought that I might as well describe the city as well, but then I gave up.

Seiji Mizushima: After all, budgeting is a big problem. "Apple Nuclear Wars α" even the background is made in 3D, so the cost must have cost a lot. The background of our "Paradise Chase" is basically hand-painted, so the cost is okay. But if you are full CG in the realistic class, this is a lot more difficult than ours.

- "Apple Nuclear Wars α" is very similar to the aforementioned "Starship Warriors: Invaders" in terms of graphics, but it is very different from the previous games "Apple Nuclear Wars APPLESEED" and "Apple Nuclear Wars EXMACHINA". What does director Aramaki think about this issue?

Nobushi Aramaki: I wasn't aware of the changes you mentioned, but after Starship Warriors: Invaders, I also made Captain Harlock, the Space Pirate, and I didn't see any difference in the graphics. That's why I woke up from you just now after you said something very different (laughs).

Seiji Mizushima: I worked as a storyboard on "Apple Nuclear Wars EXMACHINA", so I felt that something had changed. FROM "APPLE NUCLEAR WARS" TO "APPLE NUCLEAR WARS EXMACHINA", MY IMPRESSION IS TO CHALLENGE REALISM WHILE RETAINING "MOE", AND FROM "APPLE NUCLEAR WARS EXMACHINA" TO "APPLE NUCLEAR WARS α", THERE IS NO "MOE" ELEMENT LEFT, AND IT COMPLETELY CHALLENGES REALISM. There are many live-action films in the work that cannot be expressed, and the number of ordinary humans is much smaller than that of reinforced people. I think the reinforcement shows their personalities in their actions and the way they appear on the stage, and I think that's a good job. Especially the whole body mechanical reinforcement person,The double horns on the head have a detailed pattern that can only be expressed in 3D.,This kind of thing can't be expressed by hand-drawing.。 Building a three-dimensional world in 3D and then making it work well is really in line with the character of director Aramaki.

Nobushi Aramaki: After all, that's what I want to do (laughs).

Seiji Mizushima: It would be nice to just discard all the human characters and use all the human characters (laughs). It would be great if you could get something out of it that would make the audience happy. In this sense, the elimination of the "moe" element is a much more difficult challenge than ours.

Nobushi Aramaki: When I first started making zuò, American producers used to tell me, "Isn't it good to make it more like a normal anime?" "But I've always insisted on going this route. In fact, Dina can also be portrayed as a cute girl, but instead of being cute, I first chose to make her a girl who successfully survived the baptism of war on the battlefield.

Seiji Mizushima: Ordinary girls are alone and fight against a lot of reinforcements (laughs).

Nobushi Aramaki: Except for her, all other characters appear as enhancers. I think I'm doing the right thing, because Dina is the only one who is in the flesh, which brings out Dina's charm.

2. Challenging new ways of working, video production is built on communication

INTERVIEWER We know that the recently released "Paradise Chase" is the first work of director Mizushima to use CG techniques. Do you have any plans to make realistic CG animations in the future?

Seiji Mizushima: I don't have a particular focus on the type of image, so I naturally do it whenever I want to. The CG of "Paradise Chase" belongs to the category of "using CG to simulate hand-painted surfaces", which is very convenient for me, and I can apply the performance techniques that I usually use in ordinary animation to "Paradise Chase". So, on the other hand, if you ask me if you want to make realistic CG animation, I'll do it if the conditions are right.

INTERVIEWER You mean that you don't obsessed with making hand-drawn analog CGs?

Seiji Mizushima: If you answer so sure, I'm probably going to be scolded by someone who is obsessed with hand-drawn simulation CG. But at my age, I'm starting to feel that video work is based on communication. The so-called "follow the customs", what we need is to confirm whether the other party can accept their own practices, and whether they can accept the other party's practices, if our direction is the same, maybe we can leave some good things like "Paradise Chase".

Nobushi Aramaki: Although "Paradise Chase" has a very similar look and feel to ordinary animation, and the characteristics of CG are not too obvious, I think the production process and planning must be completely different from the production process of ordinary animation. How did you make zuò at that time?

Seiji Mizushima: From the very beginning, I made it clear that I would not use the method of "2D animators draw rough compositions and rough movements first". The same is true for storyboards, otherwise, the more complete the storyboard is, the more the 3D animator wants to reproduce the storyboard, and eventually the 3D animator is trapped in the 2D painting and cannot use the 3D animator's own imagination. Therefore, when looking for a storyboard leader, we pay more attention to the composition of the picture than the drawing skills.

Nobushi Aramaki: In other words, the production of "Paradise Chase" started with a rough 3D model.

Seiji Mizushima: At first, we were worried about whether we could manage such a large amount of information. Later, we found out that in such a huge amount of information, if we didn't know what kind of picture we wanted to show in the end, it would definitely not be manageable. So in that sense, I am so grateful to Mr. Confidant Kyoda (who was in charge of the performance and storyboard) that he was willing to join my production team. First of all, he didn't come from a painting background, and he also had experience directing films, so he knew very well what kind of composition he had in mind, so he was able to complete the storyboard work in an orderly manner in the huge amount of information. The performance was done by me and Mr. Kyoda, and I mainly asked him to complete the fight performance. With his help, I'm relieved. As for the other two storyboard directors, Mr. Kazuki Tsunoda and Mr. Tomoyuki Kurokawa, also have no experience in painting.

Nobushi Aramaki: Personally, I think it's important for CG animation directors to enjoy the process of making CG animation. "I can't do this way of working", if a director says something like this, then he is definitely not a qualified CG animation director. I think Director Mizushima has a very strong adaptability to the actual work! When making a CG animation, as long as the environment changes, you have to start over to adapt. I've been doing CG animation myself for several years, but I still find it very difficult to adapt to a new workflow, so I opened my own studio.

Seiji Mizushima: I see what you mean. I'm working in a different studio now, and I think there are so many differences compared to Graphinica's studio for Paradise Chase.

Nobushi Aramaki: If you were a 2D animation studio, no matter where you go, the schedule and production process would be similar, so it was rare to feel uncomfortable. However, CG animation studios are different, each with its own unique culture and completely different terminology. When conveying one's wishes, as the number of works produced by everyone increases, a tacit understanding will gradually arise that they understand without speaking. The more and more colleagues have tacit understanding, the director's job will become easier and easier, and even more difficult works will be challenged.

Seiji Mizushima: You're right, the production of "Paradise Chase" is exactly what you said.

Nobushi Aramaki: When we make ordinary animation, we know what animators and concept artists are good at, so we can understand even semi-finished products. Also, if you do something that has already been successful, the speed and quality will gradually increase, so in the end, you need to do more works.

Seiji Mizushima: Establish a company-based production process to increase the number of works produced, thereby improving production efficiency. Without this kind of thinking, I am afraid that there would be no spare effort to produce more difficult works. 3D is still in a transitional period, and I think it's great to be able to get into CG animation during this period.

3. If you make unremitting efforts to make a big discovery, you may make a big discovery

- We know that when using the method of simulating hand-drawing, there are two basic expressions: "preparatory action" and "overall action speed and slowness". Director Aramaki, do you think these two expressions are equivalent to "motion capture" in realistic techniques?

Nobushi Aramaki: When I first started making zuò animations, I used to use the two techniques you mentioned to express the movements of the people. Especially when the character jumps, I pay attention to slowing down the preparatory action of squatting, showing the feeling that the character is accumulating. But this time it's different, it's centered on capturing the acting skills of real actors, so it's used less often. In order to decide on the actors, we deliberately held auditions. It's funny, when I find a good actor, I want to just leave it all to the actor, and even the production of the picture will be centered on the actor's acting skills.

Seiji Mizushima: "Apple Core Wars α" is much more realistic than director Aramaki's 2013 "Captain Harrok the Space Pirate", which makes people feel as if he is shouting "Let's compete as live-action films!" ”

- Now, in addition to the 3DCG works of the two of them, there are also some alternative CG animations, such as "The Knight of Sidnia".

Seiji Mizushima: I think "The Knight of Sidnia" is a thorough reflection of the animation company Polygon Pictures' idea of cost control.

Nobushi Aramaki: I think they're so good that they were able to find this original work to adapt. Because "clone", "cosmic suit", "helmet", etc., are all success factors that are very suitable for CG (laughs).

Seiji Mizushima: They controlled the number of character modeling to a very small level, and then this did not cause the audience to be disgusted, but it was very much in line with the clone setting of the story. As for the monster hermite.,Although it's a very soft monster.,It's also very difficult to use CG to express xiàn.,But because the setting says that it doesn't have a fixed form.,So it should be able to use the model used elsewhere.。 I think they must have had a chance of winning when they decided on the project.

Nobushi Aramaki: And the machine qì people can't walk, they all use the means of space flight, and this setting is also very convenient for the system.

Seiji Mizushima: Murai, who was in charge of making the Zuò script, also has a good ability to summarize stories. So in every sense, the birth of this animation at this time can be said to be very powerful.

Nobushi Aramaki: Judging from the appearance, "Paradise Chase" should be able to make it more CG textured. Didn't Director Mizushima think about doing this? If you want to do it, it shouldn't be difficult to achieve.

Seiji Mizushima: If you change the appearance of the characters too much, you will never be able to eliminate the feeling that a puppet is moving. I have been thinking about the machine and the combat uniforms that appear in the work for a long time. That said, it is still necessary to keep it in a way that is not overdone. I hope to take a while for the audience to get used to and accept the new animation style, rather than giving them a sudden and drastic change. When they look back at the past after a while, they probably think that this animation style is a kind of progress, isn't it good to have such a step-by-step approach? Otherwise, we can only hope that a peerless genius will develop a new way of acting (laughs).

Nobushi Aramaki: I would like someone to invent a more efficient process of making zuò than the xiàn method. In Japan, you can't talk about animation without storyboards, and it would be nice if there was a new process to change that. A process of "acting and action first, and then the camera is aimed at these to shoot". It's like a live-action movie, but maybe you can use digital technology to create something more interesting and give you more freedom. Tong guò Tong guò perseverance in the control of zuò, perhaps one day will be able to develop a new talent.

Seiji Mizushima: A 3D animator has acting experience and uses his personal experience to create new animated images. As you said, this is really the best and the most ideal.

Nobushi Aramaki: It may not be true, but I hope that there will be someone like Iko Kaneda in the 3D industry. (Note: Iko Kaneda is a well-known animator and a pioneer in the field of special effects and motion watches.) ）

Fourth, the longer the 3DCG animation is broadcast, the higher the quality

INTERVIEWER From 2014 to 2015, there are many CG animations that you can't follow.

Seiji Mizushima: If you're a fan of video works, I think it's best to watch them all. In particular, there has been a clear change in the methodology between foreign countries and Japan, and of course there is still a big gap between Japan and other countries, but I believe that Japan is currently in a state of active preparation to compete with foreign countries.

Nobushi Aramaki: At present, there is a large amount of TV animation, and the shortage of animators is becoming more and more serious. If a studio makes a 3D animation, something interesting will be born like a sudden mutation. That's what I'm looking forward to.

Seiji Mizushima: The current Japanese animation methodology is to increase the number of works and reduce the number of episodes per anime. But on the other hand, if you reduce the number of each work, you can get more production fees for each work, and you can do more things. In terms of the proficiency of the production personnel, a work should be twenty-six episodes instead of thirteen, and fifty-two episodes instead of twenty-six. Adding more fresh elements to the old production pattern to make fans prefer a certain work should help the industry as a whole to make some new and interesting works.

Nobushi Aramaki: The longer the 3DCG anime series is broadcast, the more available material will be accumulated, the more efficient the production will become, the parts that you are good at will be better, and you will have the energy to challenge difficult shots. There is a high probability that this will enter a good cycle.

Seiji Mizushima: There are more and more models that animators can share and use, and the technology will become more and more proficient. "Paradise Chasing" constructs the actions of making zuò into a number jù library, and the other actions in the system are extracted from the number jù library and then modified, so as to improve work efficiency. It can be said that 3DCG is particularly suitable for making long-form animated series.

Nobushi Aramaki: So far, the most successful use of this method is the work "Tomoo Danji". Half a year later, the quality has been greatly improved compared to the quality when it first started, and it is simply the most advanced 3DCG animation at present.

Seiji Mizushima: Is it that powerful (laughs).

5. CG animation, the future of the future

- The realistic all-CG method is, as the name suggests, a technique that develops in the direction of reality. In the future, will it move closer to reality, or will it become something else?

Nobushi Aramaki: Let me tell you a bit of a clever personal idea. I think it's about making different responses to different works. "Apple Nuclear Wars α" is suitable for being close to reality in terms of theme, so I also tried to take a more natural approach to shooting. Including the look of the picture, CG is a great thing that can be changed according to the characteristics of the work. Therefore, although it adopts a realistic method, it does not mean that all works must rely on reality, and it needs to be considered on a case-by-case basis.

INTERVIEWER Conversely, what about the method of making zuò that simulates hand-drawing? Will it become more and more like the current hand-drawn animation, or will it become something completely new in its own right?

Seiji Mizushima: Of course, the ideal thing is to become a completely new thing, but the ultimate goal of 3D simulation hand-drawn is to reach the same level as 2D, so that what can be done in 2D can be done in 3D. Of course, I think it's better not to get too sharp. Since it has been proven that 3D can also produce zuò moe animation, I hope that there will be works in the future that will not destroy the image of the characters.

INTERVIEWER In the past, it was said that the cost of 3DCG was high. If the cost is reduced to a level similar to that of 2D, will there be a possibility that 3D will completely replace 2D?

Seiji Mizushima: The cost cannot be reduced to the current level of hand-drawing. Because hand-drawn animators are not getting rich now, of course I think that the cost of CG should go down, but it should stay above a certain level. Then, the surplus power brought by the increase in efficiency should be invested in the new production to improve the quality of the production. If you cut costs as soon as you have the spare time, you may end up with low wages for 3D animators. So, I still hope that my colleagues in charge of sponsoring will work harder. At the same time, we also hope to increase the current 2D animation budget.

INTERVIEWER I hope that I will have the opportunity to talk about the joy of CG animation with Director Mizushima in the future.

Seiji Mizushima: Being able to use CG in video works and make quite good works makes me think that our current society is really rich (laughs). At the same time, I am very happy that we can enjoy the evolution of video for all audiences. Judging from the existing 3DCG animation works, we can see what is happening at a certain time and place. Of course, it's best if the audience can fully immerse themselves in the world of the work, but it's also a fun way to enjoy watching the anime and thinking about the development trend of 3DCG.

- Finally, please introduce us to the highlights of "Apple Nuclear Wars α" again.

Nobushi Aramaki: First of all, of course, the mainframe qì people who appear at the end of the film, we have spent a lot of effort on it, and the audience who likes the machine qì people must pay attention. Then, there's the persona's expression. We tried to portray the expressions of the characters in the story, hoping that everyone would resonate with the characters' feelings. Well, just now, director Mizushima said that we would abolish all the "moe" elements (laughs).

Seiji Mizushima: No, no, I'm complimenting you on your courage (laughs). Because you don't have the guts to do that. But then again, Dina still looks very attractive and quite cute.

Nobushi Aramaki: The "Apple Nuclear Wars" series has always been a very large story, for example, about the future of humanity and other topics. But this time it's just about the adventures of two people, and I hope everyone can watch this "Apple Nuclear Wars α" in a relatively relaxed mood.

This is the end of the translation of this interview, Tencent Animation will continue to send you more and more exciting animation information in the future, please pay close attention to this channel!

"Apple Nuclear Wars Alpha" information introduction:

Release date: January 17, 2015

Region: Nationwide

Story: After the World War, New York is in ruins, and Dina, a former SWAT female player who survived the baptism of war, and her partner and former lover Brienos are still fighting the enemy. In the midst of a never-ending battle, the two of them fervently hope to live a peaceful life in Olympus, the ideal city of mankind. At this moment, a young girl suddenly appeared in front of them. The girl claims to be from Olympus and is currently being hunted by an unknown enemy. In their joint actions with the maiden, they discover the secret hidden in the girl's body—a great power that can destroy the world and the earth. Stronger enemies are closing in on them, and the future of humanity depends on the two of them!

Japanese version of the voice actor

Dina: Yuka Komatsu

Brienos: Shunichi Suwabe

Iris: Yumubi

Olson: Hiroki Takahashi

Nix: Kaori Natsuka

Talos: Hiroki Higashichi

Double horn: Tetsusho Genda

Mattheuz: Katsu no Hori