Kishimoto ended the long serialization of Naruto in November 2014. Since his student days, he has greatly admired and been greatly influenced by Hiroaki Shamura, the author of "Infinite Dwellers". This time, to commemorate the end of "Naruto", "Weekly Shonen Jump" magazine app "Shonen JUMP+" will launch a series of conversations between the two for three consecutive days, so let's take a look at what Hiroaki Shamura and Kishimoto have talked about.

Hiroaki Shamura's debut made the art students very excited

Kishimoto: Ah...... Today my wish has finally come true. I've always dreamed of meeting Mr. Shamura.

Shamura: Is that (laughs)?

Kishimoto: Well, it's true. I've been very fond of you since I was in college...... I don't know what to say anymore, there are so many things I want to say, what should I do? Let's not talk about "Naruto" today, just "Infinite Resident" (laughs).

Shamura: I have won awards (laughs).

Kishimoto: I still vividly remember when "Infinite Dweller" first started to be serialized on "Afternoon". I was a first-year student in the art department at the university, and I lived in a dormitory, and my roommates were all thrilled that they had published a "very powerful work"! He also said to me, "Anyway, Kishimoto, let's take a look first, don't you want to be a manga artist?" "And I happened to be drawing samurai manga at the time. I heard that it was also a samurai manga, so I thought about reading it as a reference, but I realized, "Ah, it's not a ...... of the same dimension at all" (laughs)

Shamura: It's too much, it's too much, it's too much (laughs).

Kishimoto: What I said is true! The picture is incredibly beautiful, and I was stunned. I realized that I couldn't draw samurai manga anymore because I wasn't an opponent at all, so I switched to a different genre.

Shamura: If you hadn't changed your mind and stuck with the samurai manga, there would have been another samurai manga classic on Shonen Jump.

Kishimoto: No, "Rogue Kenshin" had already started (laughs). As a result, the theme was slightly adjusted, and it should have become a ninja manga.

Shamura: However, in terms of results, it was a wise decision to change to a ninja manga. The image of ninjas in "Naruto" has fascinated ninja lovers abroad.

Kishimoto: yes. I never thought that there would be so many ninja lovers in foreign countries. However, in fact, in foreign countries...... I've seen a lot of stories about Naruto written by foreigners before, and some people actually hate Naruto very much. There were also people babbling against me on YouTube or something, and the walls of the room behind him were all plastered with posters of "Infinite Dwellers" (laughs). I really want to show off to that person, "I'm talking to your idol, Mr. Shamura!" (laughs)

Shamura: (laughs). It's been a prize, but sometimes there are people who like to compare my comics with other comics of similar themes, belittle other people's comics, and praise my work, and I really want to tell these people "Don't do it!" "(laughs) makes me feel ashamed.

"Which line to omit" is all about feelings

Kishimoto: However, I was also deeply impressed when I was in college. It's a shock that hasn't been seen since "Akira". Feel the overwhelming disparity in power. You especially draw very well with your hands and feet. I still remember that there was a page in Afternoon that was a cartoonist's column, and you drew a character sitting in a chair there, and it was so well drawn.

Shamura: Ah, I remember and I remember. It took me a long time (laughs).

Kishimoto: I'm 4 years apart from you, so I don't know how long I should hold a pen to practice if I want to catch up with you.

Shamura: I watched Naruto from the middle at the beginning, and I thought you were a person who had very good basic sketching skills.

Kishimoto: Huh! What the...... Wow...... (fainting)

Shamura: Really, really. Then I wanted to see how you did when you first debuted, so I read the previous one. Of course, the lines are different from now, but from the time they first debuted, they were very different from other immature newcomers.

Kishimoto: However, you really had a big influence on me. I was obsessed with "Akira" when I was in junior high school, and "Infinite Dweller" when I was in college, so I was deeply influenced by you. When I met Mr. Osamu Akimoto from "Oolong Police Station" before, he said, "You are so influenced by "Infinite Dwellers...... Kakashi is the murderer (the character in "The Infinite Dweller"), and Iruka is (the protagonist of "The Infinite Dweller") ten thousand times. "It can be inferred from the clothes and the hair.

Shamura: I see.

Kishimoto: He was absolutely right. I'm deeply influenced by how you draw my hands. When the short story "The Infinite Dweller" was published, I was moved by the drawing of the hand holding the gun. From the line from the index finger to the thumb, that part of the flesh is so well drawn, I was moved.

Shamura: However, my hands have also been influenced by other people. In the manga, the first person who made me think, "How can this person's hand draw so well" was Yasuhiko and Sensei. When I watched "Arion", I sighed, "How can you draw so beautifully"!

Kishimoto: Sure enough, you can look at your hands too.

Shamura: When you look at your own paintings, you also notice your hands. However, your hands are also very good.

Kishimoto: No, it's all influenced by you. When I made my debut with the short manga "KARAKURI", an assistant said to me, "Mr. Kishimoto, you have good hands." I told him, "No, it's actually a hand drawn by a man named Shacun." Unexpectedly, he actually said, "Ah...... I know...... I guessed it a long time ago. "(laughs) He found out a long time ago.

Shamura: However, when I draw my hands, I draw a line first, and then I draw the tendons. It doesn't matter if it's good or bad, but you can still see the back of your hand with only the outline. That's amazing.

Kishimoto: That's just omitting the lines of your hand.

Shamura: I can't say the same, judging "where can be omitted" is also a place that reflects a person's strength. You can draw with simple lines.

Kishimoto: It's not enough, your graphics are of such high quality. Normally, the image is influenced by someone, but yours is very original.

Shamura: Actually, the manga I drew when I was a student was really influenced by Katsuhiro Otomo. They also use a spot that looks exactly like a human figure as a shadow, which is commonly known as "Otomokage" (laughs). Later, I felt that it was "a little unpleasant" to go on like this, so I began to think about how to get rid of his influence, and then changed the style of painting to a messy draft style.

Kishimoto: That's even more shocking.

Shamura: That's just because I can't draw carefully with a G pen (laughs). I use a brush and a needle pen to draw simply because it's fast (laughs).

Kishimoto: But I can't believe that the painting was made with a brush. When I was in college, my friends were always discussing, "What did you draw it with?" "I don't know." Later, a friend said, "I guess I drew it with a needle pen, right?" I also said, "No, it's not a needle pen, and a needle pen will never draw this effect." Later, I saw that you said, "It was drawn with a needle pen," which was unbelievable.

Shamura: Your friend is so sharp.

Lean Milk Big Hands (?) Hiroaki Shamura challenges big breasts?

Kishimoto: The characters in "The Infinity Dweller" are so cool. The girls are also very cute. Moreover, everyone looks different. It's not easy to draw the difference between girls.

Shamura: Actually, I'm not very good at distinguishing between characters. When I draw men, some of the rough parts are cool in a sense, but when I paint women, I always tend to be beautiful, and as a result, my face becomes more or less the same.

Kishimoto: Supporting characters who are not the main characters can also be distinguished. The shape of the eyes is completely different. However, although the faces you drew can be distinguished, the bodies are basically poor breasts (laughs).

Shamura: That's because the people I painted are about the same size (laughs). Do you like women with big boobs?

Kishimoto: I unexpectedly like the big one.

Shamura: I see. Well, at the end of this conversation, don't we all have to draw the characters in each other's works? Just as I was thinking about which person to draw, my assistant said, "It's easy to imagine a character like Hinata drawn by the teacher, but if you're a woman, I'd like you to draw Tsunade or something like that, and try to challenge yourself with big breasts." Men draw a dike. "Anyway, I just want me to challenge fat people or big breasts (laughs).

Kishimoto: (laughs)

Shamura: So I thought I'd like to try my big breasts this time......

The first task of the comic screen is to "explain"

Kishimoto: I also studied the composition and structure of "Infinite Dwellers". Every time I buy Afternoon, I buy two copies.

Shamura: Huh, why?

Kishimoto: The first thing I did when I bought Afternoon was to put all of Infinite Dwellers on the wall. However, if you stick it on the wall, you can only see one side, and you have to buy two copies of the sticker in order to see both sides. Then the structure of the story is deduced from it: "Here's how it's drawn. "Use so many pages to show this." That's why now when I draw a storyboard, it's so big and eye-catching.

Shamura: Actually, I don't need to study my manga so carefully, there are enough works on JUMP that can be used as textbooks...... (laughs)

Kishimoto: No, I have to let you know how obsessed I was with your work (laughs). There is also a way of urgency and urgency, which is also very cool. Use a long lens to show the reader where the characters are, and then zoom in as if they were shooting with a camera. Draw a lot of small grids under a large grid. This approach to urgency has influenced me to this day.

Shamura: I think the first task of the manga is to "explain". The first step is to draw a picture that illustrates the scene, and then to find a picture that feels cool. I recently had an idea that after taking a closer look at the storyboards of action scenes in movies, I realized that the storyboards of movies are really different from those of manga...... There must be more long shots in the comic screen, and many of the movies are close-ups, even if there is no panorama, but as long as there is some background color behind it, the audience can guess the approximate position relationship, but it is not possible to put it in the comics......

Kishimoto: Because the manga is in black and white.

Shamura: Yes. Therefore, everything must be clearly explained with pictures.

Kishimoto; It's so hard. As long as the fight part is drawn incorrectly, the reader will not understand what they are doing.

Shamura: Because you serialize in a weekly shonen magazine, there are some things that you don't have a choice. You're so awesome, the workflow is so tight. I've seen a "JUMP" manga artist schedule for a week before, and I can't help but feel that I can still put so much effort into refining the images in such a short period of time (laughs). With so little time, efficiency must be improved. For example, when you post a dot, you can't definitely paste a Cheng dù that you are satisfied with, right?

Kishimoto: Yes. The revisions before the publication of the single book were fine, but there was no time at all for serialization.

Shamura: When you draw fights, there are many and deep lines. Because of this, it is easy to look cluttered when you have to follow the situation with your eyes. In this regard, if there is time to leave only the characters, it is easier for the reader to understand by sticking a dot in the background. You shouldn't have that time, though, right?

Kishimoto: yes. When you draw a person in front of you, you tend to stick dots. By attaching dots to the characters close to the camera, you can show the depth of the space. Naruto did the same in the early stages, but then I couldn't stick to it because I didn't have the time.

Shamura: You say that my manga is easy to read, but if there is any difference between you and mine, it is the difference in whether or not there are stickers (laughs).

Kishimoto: The other thing is the position of the camera. If the camera is too close, the relationship between the characters will not be clear. The battles in Naruto are no longer between humans. Some are as big as monsters. So, I often don't know where to put the lens. If you put it too far, you won't be able to see the character, but if you put it too close, you can't see what the enemy is. I admire the way you handle the shots. "Infinite Dwellers" is difficult to draw in the underground chapter of Oedo, right? Because underground, the perspective of everything has to be drawn. Fighting in such a place is a headache just to imagine. There aren't many positions to choose from.

Shamura: I'm not very good at drawing long shots.

Kishimoto: Even so, you were able to draw a fight scene that the reader could understand. When I appeared in Naruto, I also drew a fight on the road. At the beginning, I thought it was too difficult, and the editor in charge also said that "it is not easy to find the position of the camera". But you've drawn a lot more fights on the road in the Oedo Underground Chapter, so I drew them anyway......

Shamura: Actually, there are a lot of deceptive images used there (laughs).

Kishimoto: No, I don't think so.

Naruto excels at deceptive graphics

Shamura: When you draw perspective, do you really draw three vanishing points?

Kishimoto: Roughly use a three-point perspective...... But not so carefully drawn. If the assistant helps me connect the paper (draw the vanishing point in the distance), I will draw, but if it is really too far away, I will not draw. I really can't do it like Otomo to use a rope (to set the vanishing point)......

Shamura: After looking at your paintings, I felt that you didn't set the perspective very strictly, but "some kind of Cheng dù is drawn casually". This kind of person is even more powerful.

Kishimoto: But I don't really pay much attention to perspective. Even if the assistant makes a mistake, I won't completely fix it......

Shamura: To be honest, in terms of perspective, if you really draw the vanishing points in the works of people who are strong in spatial expression, you will find that many of them are wrong. However, such an error looks better than a diagram of the person who actually drew the vanishing point. So, when I watched Naruto, I felt that you were a "person who is very good at deceiving readers and using this trick to perfection".

Kishimoto: But you're very precise in your perspective. It must have taken a lot of time, right?

Shamura: yes, yes. Does JUMP have a dedicated manuscript paper?

Editor in charge: Yes or there...... However, it is basically useless. Probably only Akira Toriyama can use it.

Shamura: Ah, it's the same with Afternonn. There is a special manuscript paper, but only Kosuke Fujishima can use it.

Kishimoto: I see, (laughs).

Shamura: Well, I would like to say that the manuscript paper of "Afternonn" and the manuscript paper sold in the market are the same, and there are scales on the outside of the border. Removing missing points 1 cm below and 1.4 cm above the scale allows for a very good perspective. That's why when I draw perspective, I draw it with reference to the scale. However, it took too much time to be serialized in a weekly shonen magazine (laughs).

Kishimoto: It's hard work (laughs).

What are the shortcomings of Kishimoto and Sand Village?

Shamura: Changing the subject a little, I found a common weakness between me and you. It's hard for us to draw the kind of characters who "die if you want to die" (laughs). I always draw some side stories about their past, and I gradually feel that "this guy doesn't seem to be so bad" (laughs).

Kishimoto: yes, I'll join the memory drama and explain the growth process and background or something...... As a result, the story gets longer and longer (laughs).

Shamura: However, maybe it's because you're in this kind of relationship, what I admired most when I watched Naruto was that you didn't forget anyone. The final boss battle has been fought for a long time, but everyone has something to excel in. In general, many of the early characters have been forgotten in works that have been serialized for 15 years......

Kishimoto: I want them to say it too. However, you have also drawn it, so don't forget.

Shamura: Well, I want them to play except for the characters who don't have to play.

Kishimoto: I'm so happy that "Infinite Dweller" has finally come out. 10,000 times also fight with weapons to look the best.

"Naruto" that connects the mind, "Infinite Dweller" that cuts off one qiē

Kishimoto: "Infinite Dweller" has a very different part of the theme than "Naruto". One of the themes of Naruto is that "every generation passes on the mind", but "The Infinite Dweller" is "you can't let the mind pass on". The work depicts that hatred and resentment cannot be passed on, and if hatred cannot be resolved in this generation, then it will only bring pain to future generations. But at the same time, the work also depicts the content of "not only the curse, but also the heart", isn't it? I can only use the words "Why do you create such a great manga?" "It's time to express your feelings.

Shamura: I just think I can finally give the work a concluding ending (laughs). I think that since there has been such a story before, then the ending must also have such an outcome. So the ending was determined during the creative process.

Kishimoto: No, that's a wonderful ending. Hatred and hardship, these are difficult to portray. Although it will certainly contain the content of "since it has been set aside, then it must be returned", how to make this revenge appear legitimate? I've also created a series of works on the theme of revenge and hatred, but I'm very distressed about it. I think Mr. Shamura feels the same way. However, you made it a perfect ending. Was that ending determined a long time ago?

Shamura: The general plot direction has been decided after the work enters the final chapter. However, only the plot of "Tianjin ......" was determined from the beginning.

Kishimoto: No matter how you look at it, you look a little confused, right? After all, Rin was traveling with his enemy Tianjin. But all the time saying, "Only I can kill you......

Shamura: Rin's confusion reflects the author's confusion (laughs).

Kishimoto: But in this way, it seems more realistic. I think I'm actually very confused.

Shamura: In that sense, the Naruto characters, especially Naruto, belong to the unyielding genre. I think it's a great shonen manga.

Kishimoto: I'm basically not going to let Naruto give in. If he gives in, young readers will be confused. However, Naruto also hit a wall at one point. It was in the section between Nagato and Payne, and there was an answer in the plot at that time, "Retribution is not okay", but this answer is incomprehensible. Actually, I think if the protagonist really never bothered.,Then it still seems a little wrong.,And it doesn't seem real, right?

What do these places in Naruto mean!?

Shamura: Actually, I have two things to say about Naruto today (laughs). The first is Sasuke's relationship with Naruto. Sasuke left everyone for a while, but soon came back, right? During this period of time, Naruto was very concerned about Sasuke and took various actions, but Sasuke's side did almost nothing related to Naruto, and just made up all kinds of determinations, right? And Naruto barely affected Sasuke's actions, and honestly I was thinking: is it really good to set it up like this? It's just that when I saw the end, I realized that the reason why Sasuke was able to solve the Ichiē problem and return to everyone was actually due to Naruto's efforts.

Kishimoto: That's right.

Shamura: When I saw this, I sighed, "Ah, that's right, that's great." And the unhappiness caused by this plot has also disappeared. And then there's one more thing: the shadow doppelganger technique, which appeared in the early days of the work, is a little too high (laughs).

Kishimoto: (laughs)

Shamura: At first, I just thought it looked cool, but when I think about it, I can't help but shout, "Isn't this amazing!?" (laughs)

Kishimoto: That's right (laughs). The hero is like a plug-in.。 Because it's a secret technique.,It's actually impossible to use.,But the hero did it.。 In the end, I attributed it to the influence of the fox (laughs).

Shamura: Speaking of which, what kind of work does Mr. Kishimoto want to create next?

Kishimoto: Anyway, I don't want the next work to be too long (laughs). I wanted to draw a story that would be finished in about 10 volumes.

Shamura: I'm afraid JUMP won't let you succeed (laughs). But if it's a work that can end in 10 volumes, I'd really like to take a look. So what is the concept of content?

Kishimoto: Hmm...... I wanted to avoid a little bit of a style similar to Naruto...... However, readers are still looking forward to stories like "Naruto". I've briefly drawn short stories about the mafia before, but someone said, "I've been waiting for superpowers to appear, and I'm looking forward to it." It turned out to be over without appearing anything. ”

Shamura: But JUMP is relatively relaxed, isn't it? Their idea is basically "Anyway, let's draw first, and if it doesn't work, it's going to end at the place where the single book is about 1 volume, and then wait for the next work!" Therefore, from my personal point of view, when Mr. Kishimoto wants to create a new work in the future, he does not have to think about "making the work so popular again!" "Let's try to create something weird.

Kishimoto: I really wanted to try something weird. Also, it's really hard to serialize in a weekly magazine, so I want to try it in a monthly magazine.

Shamura: Ah, Mr. Kishimoto's drawings are very good, and I would like to see what you put on the screen when you create a work that you can recognize.

Kishimoto: No...... But if only I could give me plenty of time to paint. In this way, I can create something that satisfies me. However, in this case, there will only be cases where you will not be able to meet the deadline (laughs).

What are the responsibilities of adults?

Shamura: However, although there are some things that I shouldn't say, we should not only have comics in our lives, but also create some time with our children.

Kishimoto: That's what I really think. The growth of the child is beyond our expectations. Recently, the series has ended, and the amount of time spent with children has increased, and I think it's very nice to be able to connect with children to some extent.

Shacun: How old are your children?

Kishimoto: The eldest is 10 years old, and the second is about to be 6 years old.

Shamura: If your child is 10 years old, I'm sure I'll be reading my father's manga.

Kishimoto: No, I didn't. He just read the last sentence, so naturally he couldn't understand what the work was trying to say, and then he came to me and asked, "Why is this happening?" Why is this happening? (laughs)

Shamura: It's hard to answer the 15-year-old serialization at this moment (laughs).

Kishimoto: I'll just conclude: "How do you explain it?" It's a story of Sasuke and Naruto arguing and then reconciling." However, the plot of 15 years is still difficult to summarize in one sentence (laughs).

Shamura: Have you changed your content creation since you had children?

Kishimoto: Naturally, this is changing. In the past, I started from Naruto's point of view, but after I had a child, I began to look at problems and describe the situation of my work from my father's point of view.

Shamura: Oh, me, I don't have any children yet. But if I have a child in the future and grow up to this size, I'm afraid I'll burn down my tasteless bookshelf. Then yelled: "You can't see this kind of thing!" (laughs)

Kishimoto: (laughs).

Shamura: But I think that's good. Young readers are always going after something exciting, unethical, and upside down, right? So, if I have children in the future and create comics with a very sleek personality and seemingly non-aggressive characters, then I'm afraid that young readers will say, "Ah, Shamura is completely out of it after getting married." However, in this case, it may be the readers who have children who can resonate with the work.

Kishimoto: Yes. I'm afraid that if I change, then I will also gain new fans. And this change is also interesting.

Shacun: When you get married and have children, you will naturally change in your life, which is also a true manifestation from the perspective of being a human being. Therefore, after Mr. Kishimoto got married and had children, he added his father's perspective in the second half of "Naruto". I find this arrangement both real and interesting.

Kishimoto: It's just that there are parts of me that haven't changed. So, do I seem mature? This is still unsettling.

Shamura: The eternal theme of shonen manga is where the characters have grown. It's always hard for me to portray a "teenager". And having a teenager as the protagonist is probably the most painful thing for me. The boy will be weak at first, a kind of existence that is guarded by a man stronger than himself, right? But one day, he will be freed from such protection. The royal part of the manga lies in the theme, but the challenge is where to start to make him switch to mature mode......

Kishimoto: In other words, it's difficult to turn a "child" into a "man" somewhere.

Shamura: But if you ask, "Did Naruto become a completely different character from himself in the last episode?" "I don't think so, Naruto is still Naruto all the time. I'm in my forties now, and when I think about it, adults don't appear to be very mature everywhere and at all times. As long as he can tell everyone, "I've done these things before" and "If I travel, I'll think so", then he has already fulfilled the responsibility of an adult.

Kishimoto: Exactly. Although I may not have changed at all, the plot depicted in "Naruto" is something that is often told to children. This may also be a way to look at adults from the perspective of children.

End of conversation

[Mr. Shamura's message to Mr. Kishimoto]:

It's been 15 years of hard work! I'm often shocked by the stories in the work, thinking, "Sure enough, the level of the weekly writer is not the same", and I think it's a very interesting work.

In the illustration of this drawing, only Tsunade is in the original state (because I want her to appear without sleeves + jewelry anyway). This kind of happy time in the picture may also be in the state of infinite monthly reading. I tried to express this uneasiness...... Thank you for your understanding.

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[Kishimoto's message to Mr. Shamura]:

"Beautiful, overwhelmingly impressive artwork, beautiful settings, and impeccable storyboards! Tōguò's conversation with Mr. Hiroaki Shamura made my heart (wanting to be a manga artist) stir! I'll challenge it with the consciousness of being split in half!

When Mr. Shamura won the Four Seasons Award, he once drew a self-portrait. This painting has an amazing workmanship, and I still remember it vividly. And when "Infinite Dwellers" was serialized in "after", it was also very different from the version of the comic storyboard, which is fascinating!

Being able to paint with Mr. Hiroaki Shamura made me feel arrogant. And before I met with the teacher, I actually drew Naruto with an autograph, which made it feel like life was worse than death (please excuse me.) Crying)

The conversation with Mr. Shamura was a great joy to talk about, even though the topic was always endless.

I'm really happy to be able to talk to him!

For Mr. Hiroaki Shamura, I really want to express my sincerest thanks! ”