Source: @Tencent Animation: Persona

In order to commemorate the 25th anniversary of "Ghost in the Shell" and the upcoming release of "Ghost in the Shell ARISEborder: 3GhostTears", Japanese media recently invited Takafumi Horie, the former CEO of Livedoor, and Mitsuhisa Ishikawa, the head of Production I.G. Horie has a huge amount of knowledge, and Ishikawa will have a conversation about Operation Pegasus, from which he will be able to peek into the world of "border:3" works.

The Ghost in the Shell franchise has been celebrating 25 years this year. This worldly world, depicted by Shirou Masamune, still has an impact on many audiences today. And this popularity shows no signs of fading, which is surprising. In addition, since director Mamoru Oshii produced "GHOSTINTHESHELL/Ghost in the Shell", this series of animation works is constantly being updated. After the birth of animation, it allows people to taste the charm of "Ghost in the Shell" with the most intuitive visual experience.

On the occasion of its 25th anniversary, Ghost in the Shell also ushered in the latest installment of the series. This new work will be launched in 4 episodes, and the story tells the story of the 9th lesson of public security from obscurity to fame. At present, the second episode "Border:2" has been released, and "Border:3" will also be released to the audience soon.

In order to commemorate the 25th anniversary of "Ghost in the Shell" and the upcoming release of "Ghost in the Shell ARISEborder: 3GhostTears", Japanese media recently invited Takafumi Horie, the former CEO of Livedoor, and Mitsuhisa Ishikawa, the head of Production I.G. Horie has a huge amount of knowledge, and Ishikawa will have a conversation about Operation Pegasus, from which he will be able to peek into the world of "border:3" works.

■ The future of animation

Q: Does Mr. Horie usually watch anime? If so, what works have left a deep impression on you?

Horie: I think I've seen a lot more than ordinary people. I'm certainly not one of those people who spends a lot of time on it. As for my favorite work, I think it's "Wang Li's Space Army ~Wings of Oniamis~".

Q: So have you watched Ghost in the Shell?

HORIE : I've seen "GHOSTINTHESHELL".

Q: Nowadays, Japanese animation is being known to a large number of people overseas as part of "COOLJAPAN", and even if it is regarded as a Japanese culture, I believe that many people will agree with it. What exactly does Mr. Horie think about anime?

Horie: Nowadays, even some old works can be remade with the latest techniques and more interesting experiences. I think it's pretty good in this regard. For example, "New Theatrical Eva" is a representative of this. Also, I value the development of animators. One time I can't remember talking to someone and said, "I want to animate." However, he said, "There are only a handful of people in Japan who can draw moving pictures beautifully." It's amazing that Miyazaki was able to draw moving pictures very beautifully. But there aren't many people like that. As a result, people like Miyazaki were able to create popular works, but even so, there were still no people who could imagine the action of the anime and draw beautiful storyboards and sketches. Is his word true?

Ishikawa: Mr. Miyazaki is a person who can draw "distortions". This is an effect that cannot be achieved with computer technology. Whether or not a "distortion" can be drawn depends to the greatest extent on how much sensibility people have. Only those who can draw "distortions" very well can be called "amazing". The same is true when it comes to graphic design. The people who are really good are not the people who realistically represent the pictures, but the people who draw compositions that can make the audience emotionally engaged. I think there are very few people like that. And we don't have the skills to train such talents.

Horie : Is that so?

Ishikawa: I think the animators who worked on the front lines of AKIRA (1988) deserve to be called "great." Almost all of them were young people in their 20s. In addition, Mr. Horie's "Wang Li Space Army ~Wings of Oniamis~" mentioned just now is also a work of young people. But even if we were to make a work that would be exactly like AKIRA, I don't think we would be able to do it. Because the way I used to paint is no longer used. In the past, people sacrificed their sleep time to paint, and they were not even paid money, but rice. But that's it, the group of people still shouted energetically, "Okay, everyone is doing a good job!" "It's impossible to see a scene like this in this day and age. Of course, in the process of developing from the early days of pencil drawing to today's drawing board technique, there have also been some "skilled craftsmen" who can flexibly use CG. It's just that the situation of the older generation of animators who take a pencil and compose a little bit will not happen anymore. The so-called change of the times does not mean that if the skills are improved, we will be able to create better works than before, but that we should use the latest techniques to create the most suitable works according to people's perception of the times. As for whether this work is interesting or not, it is another matter.

■ Imagine the future

Ishikawa: I have a question for Mr. Horie. Nowadays, a wide variety of companies are growing and promoting the development of the world across borders. What role do you think the state will play in the future?

Horie: Personally, the concept of the nation and the state is a "common fantasy" in itself. Since I am a Japanese national, I feel that I am just a member of the "common fantasy" to which I belong. In the past, people could only belong to "countries", "companies", and "families", but now they can become members of many groups. On Facebook, for example, people can belong to all sorts of circles. In terms of national units, on the Internet, I am more like a member of the "Apple Country" than a member of the "Japan Country". When we buy the iPhoneAPP, 30% of the cost is taken by Apple. If you make fun of it, you can shout "The apple tax is too high!" "Literally, we are Apple citizens who pay taxes in the "Apple Country", and the territory of the Apple Country may be larger than that of Japan. If someone says to me, "You have been stripped of your citizenship in the apple country!" "Then I'm definitely going to get restless.

Ishikawa: In Ghost in the Shell, the world to which people belong is a "network that crosses borders" that has been constructed through "computerization."

Horie: Isn't there something called "Bitcoin" that is also popular on the Internet right now? This is somewhat similar to the setting of the work. Bitcoin is a global consensus active cryptocurrency, and it is completely a user-autonomous trading tool. In this way, the state and third-party institutions have no right to intervene, so the transaction fee is basically 0. In the future, I think that contractual relationships (stocks, securities) and voting will be realized through the Bitcoin network.

Q: Shirou Masamune created Ghost in the Shell in 1989. That was 25 years ago. At that time, when the Internet was not yet developed, he could say that he predicted the development of today's network society and even more future. In fact, in the world of "Ghost in the Shell", the 9th Public Security Division was established 15 years after 2014, that is, in 2029. So, what do you think will happen in the world in 2029?

Ishikawa: Mr. Shirou's "Ghost in the Shell" is full of realism. In the work, the story begins with a world where a nuclear war broke out. Radiation contamination is spreading, and Japan is also vigorously developing technologies to remove nuclear contamination, and has achieved a high degree of development based on such technologies. In addition, abundant funds also promoted the improvement of biochemical skills, and soon the global heinous crime began to occur more than the scale of the country. The 9th Public Security Division was also established against this background. After constructing such a historical stage, Mr. Shirou also said, "Human beings are the same as pendulums. "When the technique has developed to a certain level, it will definitely be shaken and regressed. There will also be no significant changes in the design of clothing and infrastructure, but there will be signs of retro after a certain stage of development. Of course, more than the above examples, nothing will evolve in the direction of extremes. Mr. Shirou's painting of the world contains this "pendulum principle". Returning to the question just now, although it is already 2029 in the work, it gives people the feeling that it has not changed much from today, and the sense of reality is strong. I think that's really clever.

Horie Rie: I see.

Q: How does Mr. Horie think society will change in 2029, 15 years from now?

Horie: I can't imagine it at all (laughs).

Q: What does Mr. Horie think he would have done at that time?

Horie: I'm not particularly interested in what I'm going to be doing in 15 years.

Q: Do you think Mr. Horie is optimistic about the future......

Horie : I don't think it's optimistic to think about the future. In the future, I'm afraid nothing good will happen. In other words, "even if I think about the future, nothing good will happen." Fifteen years later, I'll be 55 years old. I don't really want to think about it (laughs). At the age of 55, I am definitely more seriously aged than I am now. I don't want to imagine myself like that. Therefore, I don't really understand the thinking of people who think about the future. I also wrote in my work "0": Don't be bound by the past, don't cower from the future, and live in the present. The future or something, if you really don't imagine it, it would be better. Instead of thinking about the future, it is better to do what you should do now.

Q: What do you think of President Ishikawa?

Ishikawa: Oh, I'm 55 years old this year, and I was complained about (laughs). But surprisingly, 55 years old is not very bad.

Horie Ie: Of course, I think you'll think that's the case at your age (laughs).

Ishikawa: Mr. Horie thinks that it is better to do what you need to do now. And I think that if you can enjoy the people you have now, you will probably be able to maintain the same mentality in 10 years. It's the same with works. We hardly look back at the works of the past. What we're really interested in is the "now". It's important that Ghost in the Shell brings together the people who create the "now" every time a new series is released. Because of this, I believe that Ghost in the Shell must be a work that always "creates the moment".

■Self and love are the same circuit

Q: There is a big theme in the world of Ghost in the Shell, which is "Where should I find the self?" So what kind of existence does Mr. Horie think the self is?

Horie Rie: The so-called self means "self is oneself" and "self-affirmation". In the course of life, people create a circuit called "I am who I am" in their minds, and then confirm this circuit day after day. For example, this is the same as liking someone. Don't you think it's an incredible thing to "fall in love with someone"? One day, we will have a deep affection for girls, and this affection will grow day by day. But at the same time, we don't know why we like girls. If the other person asks, "What do you like about me?" We can only answer: "I don't know what to say" and "I like it because I like it" (laughs). We feel that "because we like it, we like it", and this thought will also firmly believe that we like each other's hearts. Therefore, if the people who like to die and live now meet again by chance after 10 years, because this love circuit has been cut off, we will wonder: "Why did you like this guy at that time?" (laughs)

Ishikawa: I see. Self and love are also half-hearted, so sometimes we suddenly forget about ourselves.

Horie Rie: yes, yes. So, we have to keep checking ourselves. The self, like love, is also made up of circuits. And "Ghost in the Shell" is based on this idea as the central axis.

Ishikawa: Exactly.

■ Teleport consciousness

Ishikawa: There are two things in Mr. Horie's book "0" that I have been very interested in after reading it. These are the chapters "The Fear of Inevitable Death" and "Technology Changing the World". The former tells us about the fear of death and how to overcome it. "The fear of death still exists today", and people's attempts to "fight death" have been a long-standing theme. After reading it, I wondered, how can I avoid "death"? In the book, Mr. Horie proposes the idea of "stripping away the flesh and transferring consciousness". And this concept is the same as the concept of "Ghost" in the world of "Ghost in the Shell" (Note: "Ghost in the Shell" is a concept of "personality and self" in the world of "Ghost in the Shell". Once teleportation, the body is lost, and something new is born) has a similar meaning. It's not the same as a "brain transplant." Speaking of which, we can use the computer to accumulate "records" continuously, but it is difficult for the computer to generate "consciousness and feelings", and it is impossible to store "memories and experiences". As for Mr. Horie's idea of transferring his "personality and self" to a computer, I think he has something in common with Mr. Shirou.

Horie : Is that so?

Ishikawa: At the end of the day, there has never been anyone I know who can specifically discuss the issue of "teleportation of consciousness" other than Mr. Shirou. So what does it mean for Mr. Horie to "teleport consciousness"?

Horie Horie : Human cells are replaced at a very rapid rate, and in a few months, the entire human body is replaced. The molecules in the brain are constantly replaced. However, consciousness can be maintained without interruption. We will realize that "yesterday's self and today's self are a continuous existence". It's a kind of "I've always existed" thinking. The so-called "transmission of consciousness" means that when our consciousness continues to exist, the brain slowly becomes something different from the previous brain. The so-called brain is one that paralyzes some of these functions, but still keeps people conscious. It's as if a person with cerebral infarction or hemiplegia is still conscious. So, what if we could replace the brain from organic to inorganic while maintaining the existence of consciousness, and finally transfer consciousness to inorganic matter...... I think this kind of world will come one day.

Q: What Mr. Horie is talking about is the world world in "Ghost in the Shell". Do you think the arrival of this world is a blessing for human beings?

Horie: I don't think about whether this kind of world will make people happy or unhappy. If there is such a technique, then humans will naturally use it. Human beings are born with the ability to try anything possible. For example, Albert Einstein proposed the theory of relativity. He derived "E=mc2 (2 is squared)", a theoretical physics formula that explains the relationship between energy (E) and mass (m). Judging from the results, you can see the tremendous energy contained in the mass. Then everyone will be thinking about how to induce this energy, and the first thing to apply this principle was a nuclear bomb. The nuclear fission of high-concentration uranium triggers a chain reaction, followed by further splitting of plutonium. The birth of the nuclear bomb is also the result of people's exploration of the psychology of things. Man, that's the kind of being. Want to open Pandora's box. So I don't think there's any point in discussing whether a technique is good or bad. As long as the technique appears, people will use it.

Q: If you talk about "prosthetics" (Note: "Ghost in the Shell" is a tool that replaces the body in the world. From the prosthetic body of the hands and feet to the prosthetic body of the whole body), the technique was born, and then people said to Mr. Horie that "if you use this, you can triple Mr. Horie's life." So will you try?

Horie : I'll try it right away. Wouldn't you give it a try?

Q: Don't you think it's scary? Entrusting one's body to technology can also create fear.

Horie Ie: I thought it was fun, so I'd try it right away.

■As long as it is something that is imagined by human beings, it is possible

Q: In manga and anime, is there a driving force that will guide the future development of the world and promote more advanced IT industry and technology?

Horie Ie: Absolutely. Originally, the concepts of creation and science fiction existed for these purposes. Techniques come from science fiction. The things that humans imagine have basically become reality.

Q: In other words, the moment humans start imagining, they are already moving towards realization.

Horie Rie: I think that's it. For example, let's talk about rockets. After reading Jules Verne's Travels to the Moon, Dr. Konstantin Tsiolkovsky began to delve into rocket theory in order to achieve the goal of space travel. After that, everyone referred to his theory and carried out the actual rocket production. I think science fiction has that kind of power. So now everyone is thinking about how to get to Mars, how to get to Jupiter, how to fly out of the solar system. Anyway, the unmanned probe Voyager 2 has left the solar system. I think one day, we'll even be able to go to the stars next to us.

Q: In other words, the time will come when you can move between stars.

Horie: I think I'll come.

Q: Finally, let me ask President Ishikawa a question. "Ghost in the Shell" has gone through 25 years since the birth of the original game, so what kind of work will the latest series be this time?

Ishikawa: Kazuya Kuse, who is the chief director, is a person who has about 25 years of experience as a painting director. If you want him to make "Ghost in the Shell", then the only time is now. And he himself walked into the work site with such a mood. To repeat, our goal in creating Ghost in the Shell is to "make what can be done today, and make what can only be done today." In addition, in the latest "border:3", the biggest attraction is love. The love between the "ghosts" that transcend physical existence, and the reflection on "what is gender and what is a man and a woman" are all worthy of attention. If you can be more impressed by the plot itself, then I will be very grateful.